Inshallah

absolutely.

romance has nothing to do with politics.

From:

kazoogrrl.livejournal.com

Does romance have to be linked to money? I've had far more romantic (and free!) things done for me than a guy paying for dinner. What if you ask someone out and pay for dinner - isn't that "romance"?

I always found lighting someone's cigarette (guy for girl or the reverse) to be more about sex than romance.

From:

romance is very much linked to generosity. the money is merely symbolic.

From:

sarahmarvelous.livejournal.com

But who pays for dinner doesn't have to have anything to do with romance. That whole article is about women embracing old-fashioned sexual politics and rejecting feminism, only to find that they need it. And I don't mind someone treating me to dinner or doing nice things for me like opening a door, etc., but I don't think you should reject men entirely because they don't do those things either.

From:

I don't reject men just because they don't do those things; I don't necessarily accept men just because they do those things either.

The point is, I've already got (or can get for myself) everything I need. I can already pay for my own dinners and light my own cigarettes. What I look for is somebody who's going to make my life a better place with him in it than it would be if he weren't.

From:

I don't reject men just because they don't do those things; I don't necessarily accept men just because they do those things either.

unfortunately, there's the ilk who do those things solely because they think it will get them in the panties quicker. traditional etiquette or no, i just want to be treated with respect. opening doors is a nice gesture. it's the guy who will buy tampons for you without protest who makes the final cut.

From:

it's the guy who will buy tampons for you without protest who makes the final cut.

this is why I love you

From:

oh, you of the voluminous curls and the boundless sarcasm. (do they cancel each other out, i wonder?)

From:

naw, cuz even if you shaved my head, I'd still be a total cunt.

From:

yeah.
i.
hear.

From:

kazoogrrl.livejournal.com

Something I wonder - all this talk of women in high powered jobs not being able to find men to marry, or have kids with? Perhaps many of these women don't WANT to get married or have kids. This entire article is an all or nothing presentation (and really, referring only a small slice of the American populations, i.e. well off, college educated, urban, etc.), which is nothing like the people that I know.

From:

suhl.livejournal.com

That's along the lines of how I was feeling about it.

"The rule of thumb seems to be that the more successful the woman, the less likely it is she will find a husband or bear a child."

Or maybe it's that they're making choices. In my continuing addiction to Murphy Brown reruns, last night's was pretty relevant. Corky's was unhappy because her husband didn't seem satisfied with having her as the breadwinner, and she couldn't figure out how to be a top journalist, traveling frequently, etc., plus be a mommy who was home with the kids all the time, and everything else. She said her mother told her she could have it all, but she was starting to think her mother was wrong. Then she said, "But you figured that out a long time ago, didn't you, Murphy?"

Murphy has the men, and the baby by accident, but she's not home baking cookies for him all the time, and she works in an awfully flexible workplace compared to most of the rest of us. Her career takes hits when she chooses to have the baby. While you can have the successful career and the baby, you also can't be in two places at once. If there were a husband there too, you can't be in three places at once.

And I think a lot of those high-powered career women know they're making that choice and do so on purpose, the same way I know women who, as strange as it sounds to me, are choosing to be mommies and only mommies.

But on top of all that, I heard another report the other day that said (if I'm remembering right) that now in 30% of dual income couples, the woman is the higher wage-earner. It doesn't seem to be causing all this drama for all of us. There are men who are willing to do their share of the chores, be supportive of you being as successful as you want to be, and having their own successes, too. And I don't think they're such a rare breed.

From:

astronautical.livejournal.com

what you're saying about flexible work place and choice is so right on, but I am also so pissed that I HAVE to make this choice, while it's generally expected that men don't have to. even though there ARE men who are willing to do chores and be supportive of your success it's still the status quo that the man always works and the woman either works and has day care or doesn't work and is only a mommy. I want this hard choice to be a dad's choice too.

From:

suhl.livejournal.com

What's weird (from my own life story) is that I think I got that and turned it down. I was always the career-track girl, and he always wanted to be Mr. Mom. I never ever imagined considering staying home, and now that I have to actually face it, I want to be the one who *gets* to have the choice (rather than the one who *has* to make the choice). That said, I still can't imagine not doing something else besides mommying, whether that means working from home somehow or volunteering or whatever. In our case, it turns out that I'm the one with a job that could potentially be done from home, whereas his could not. Stay tuned for next month's exciting episode of What Will They Pick...

From:

astronautical.livejournal.com

it's really an amazing dilemna, even when one knows what one wants! it's one of those ugly decisions where there are just too many people involved. I do want to know what you end up picking...

the only happy medium I can see for american culture is that how, we curb our consumerist ways and are able to work part time. that way everyone gets to be a parent, everyone gets to be a worker, and everyone gets to have time together as a family too. sadly, though, I don't think it'll happen soon enough for our generation to cash in/out.

From:

pity.livejournal.com

I'm so woefully behind the times. I kept my own name, can't lie to save my life, and wouldn't know how to "hunt" if you gave me a bow and arrow.

From:

i've been reading Flux (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/038549887X/qid=1130952616/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-5684913-9667048?v=glance&s=books). talk about mind blowing.

From:

I've gotten this article from a couple different sources this week. I just don't know what to do with it. I'm still not entirely sure what the message is here. Is it: reject feminism or reject traditional roles, but either way your doomed to a life of dissatisfaction and "the grass is always greener."

The thing is - I am this demographic. I'm 32, urban, and a very successful lawyer. Did I 'make' the choice not to have kids? No. Did I chose not to have kids with (or marry) the men that have presented themselves to me thus far? Yes. Do I still stand by those decisions? Absolutely. Do I feel the shrinking pool of (a) available men? (b) available, educated me? (c) available, educated, and relatively emotionally stable men? Hell yes. Would I settle for marriage with someone who isn't right just to have a family. No. Or maybe, not yet.

But, this article - and this sentiment - doesn't shed any additional light on the subject. To be honest, I think it just "legitimizes" the fears of professional, single, 30-something women. "I mean, it was in the New York Times for god sake. So, it must be true. I'm not going to find a male peer to get romantically involved with." What good does this do? Panic does not make you attractive and it doesn't increase your chances of finding someone that you're truly compatable with. It's erosive.

It sucks. One day, you're bopping along, dating around and going to work. The next day you look up, your career is going well, but you still haven't found the right guy, time is passing, and the herd is getting thinner and thinner, while your chance of having a child slims with it. Honestly, I didn't need the New York Times to break the news to me.

From:

Strange game, Dr. Falken. The only way to win is not to play.

Honestly, I look around me and realize the race was finished a long time ago, and I never even got off the starting line, and I'm strangely ambivalent about losing a game I never even wanted play in the first place.

From:

Good for you. But, for me, who wants kids (and is vaguely ambivalent about my career) -- it's off to China or something along those lines.

From:

Oh, the kids aren't a problem. It's the finding a suitable partner with which to raise them.

Because if there's one thing we all learned from our collective experiences growing up in single-parent households, is that it's way too big a job for one person to do alone.

From:

Amen sister! This whole thing is making me crazy. At a minimum, it perpetuates horrible stereotypes and creates a sense of entitlement among young-middle aged men that makes them difficult to deal with.

From:

That might have come off snotty - wasn't intended that way. It's just massively frustrating and there is no answer.

From:

Oh, no worries--I totally understand your frustration.

I never planned to be a career girl. I never planned to be a wife, or a mom, or really, anything. It all just kind of ... happened.

From:

The article, among other things, seemed to really come down on Feminism; that somehow it was leading us in the wrong direction or was a smokescreen or a cruel hoax.

Funny that just under

whiskey_poptart's posting the next poster from my friendslist had this to point out.

From:

PS- I don't know the poster; her LJ was cross-posted. Though it is amusing that her userpic would suggest the non-make-up wearing hippie-type tht seems so derided by the more appearnace-oriented. I'm not advocating one way or t'other. Bit I will say that my personal experience has found the hippie-non-expecting-the guy-to-pay-for-dinner-types in much happier relationships/partnerships.

From:

too much is being made of the who-pays-for-dinner issue

honestly, what's the big deal?

any guy who would begrudge his date a meal, or act like paying for dinner is going to nominate him for a Nobel prize, isn't somebody I want to spend time with anyway. THAT'S ALL.

as

forexample put it, the right guy can make Taco Bell a romantic dining experience.

From:

any guy who would begrudge his date a meal

Not to put too fine a point on it, but that's exactly what I meant. You still expect him to pay. Not paying would be begrudging and implies stingy. And yet, it doesn't seem like you wouldn't hold yourself to the same standard. Not the paying, but the expectation therein.

I get the impression that a lot of ladies are looking for a relationship for what it can do for them, and not an actual partnership of give and take. Good luck, but they ain't ever going to find what they looking for. At least, not with a man who is anything but a yes-dear-pushover.

the right guy can make Taco Bell a romantic dining experience.

Apparently, only if he pays for it. ;-P

From:

tyldak.livejournal.com

I've been coming back to this post, and that article, all day, trying to articulate a constructive response. I can't speak to your stuff, but I find Ms. Dowd's stuff very annoying on many interweaving levels. There's so much there that's just fucked up I don't know where to begin. Plus, I'm a man, so I don't know what other men are like, from a woman's point of view. Heck, she may be right, in a general sense. I was quite relieved to find this Slate article, written by a woman, which seems to cover most of my consternated bases. I enjoy most of Ms. Dowd's writing, but God damn, some editor needs to slap her upside the head with a fish. The people who need most to read what she writes will never get beyond her style. Perhaps I sound like someone telling Mozart he has "too many notes" in his pieces, but still...! I really wish that woman would get a reality check.

- Tyldak

From:

I'm not familiar with Maureen Dowd's work; honestly, I didn't even notice the stylistics of the piece so much as I was drawn in by its content because it's something I see my friends and me grapple with on a near-daily basis, and wonder why it has to be this way.

From:

It doesn't have to be, though. It really really doesn't. We can stop with the manipulations and generalities and stereotypes and treat each other like people. Otherwise, the situation will just continue.

From:

basilbasilmint.livejournal.com

good conversation-starter that, poptart is, eh? i'll pay for her next dinner if she gives a guy a "whomever invited pays" free pass,

xoxo
drunkbasilbasilmint

From: